Contracts of Fleeting Passion

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Re: Contracts of Fleeting Passion

Postby Fetch » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:24 am

The Doctor wrote:It doesn't mean there aren't good, unique powers in there (fleeting autumn 4 and fleeting summer 4, cough cough), just that either the lower levels don't make the cost worth it, or we haven't had a concept built for them.

Unique powers like reducing a targets feelings of fear or anger? Like what you can do with the fourth clause of this Contract? Execution is different (it works upon the Passion system) but the concept is there.


edit: Possible alternate catches for Fleeting 1:
a) Remove the long term requirement from the Passion. I think you're kinda cool and I like you, transitory passion (intensity 1) and insta-catch go. This could be fun because it encourages changelings to express the emotions of their courts often and on strangers. Spring desires everybody, Summer gets pissed at everybody, Autumn fears everybody, and Winter is just depressed by everybody's presence.
b) Catch: This clause may be freely used on anyone who has any long term Passion for the character and whom the character has any long term Passion for. Alternatively the courtier may call upon the power of Fleeting Intuition by catching the targets eye* after having observed them for several minuets. * or some other simple action. This makes the Contract free on people you care about and who care about you (even if care means hate) or on people you study for some time.
Of the two changes I like 'a'.
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Re: Contracts of Fleeting Passion

Postby The Doctor » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:02 am

Dropping someone's passion does not make them stop fighting. Dropping someone's passion does not make them immune to fear.
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Re: Contracts of Fleeting Passion

Postby Fox Folger » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:00 am

... So no on the "keep both" idea?
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Re: Contracts of Fleeting Passion

Postby Fetch » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:06 am

Like I said, same concept but based on Passions.

Instead of removing someone's anger and having a special rule stating they cannot fight for x time without it we just remove their anger.

Removing someone's fear dose not make them immune to fear going forward but it can make them immune to fear retroactively. If your friend gets hit with (new) Fleeting Autumn 5 and is filled with near uncontrollable fear you can systematically remove their fear and thereby remove the effect. It's damn close to being immune to fear.

So yes, we lose the specific implementation from the original. I don't think this is a problem. In the case of Autumn we still can accomplish a very similar thing, doubly so if you throw Oath and Punishment 2? on top to stop people from messing with your emotions. In the case of Summer I fall into the camp that thought that stopping combat to talk it out isn't a very Summer thing to do.
Since you would morn the passing of the old effects we may just have to agree to disagree on this point.

I would not keep both as this is intended as a re-write of Fleeting X. Note that it would not replace the Zenith Sun or Witching Moon as those are not Fleeting X and are, as you noted, significantly different.
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Re: Contracts of Fleeting Passion

Postby Fox Folger » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:13 am

Fetch wrote:Like I said, same concept but based on Passions.

Instead of removing someone's anger and having a special rule stating they cannot fight for x time without it we just remove their anger.

Removing someone's fear dose not make them immune to fear going forward but it can make them immune to fear retroactively. If your friend gets hit with (new) Fleeting Autumn 5 and is filled with near uncontrollable fear you can systematically remove their fear and thereby remove the effect. It's damn close to being immune to fear.

So yes, we lose the specific implementation from the original. I don't think this is a problem. In the case of Autumn we still can accomplish a very similar thing, doubly so if you throw Oath and Punishment 2? on top to stop people from messing with your emotions. In the case of Summer I fall into the camp that thought that stopping combat to talk it out isn't a very Summer thing to do.
Since you would morn the passing of the old effects we may just have to agree to disagree on this point.

I would not keep both as this is intended as a re-write of Fleeting X. Note that it would not replace the Zenith Sun or Witching Moon as those are not Fleeting X and are, as you noted, significantly different.

To be fair, this new contract doesn't let you remove anything-- just reduce intensity to 1.

Edit: Oh, wait, no, that says "below zero" not "to zero." Nemmind.
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Re: Contracts of Fleeting Passion

Postby The Doctor » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:47 am

Except that the fear one is now no longer a protection, but a reactive countermeasure. Which doesn't work if, say, you're already fleeing in terror.

As for summer, draining a person's passion for fighting (even if they have one) one by one, for the entire group, where the only effect will be "oh, I don't have my passion for fighting? Well, I can still do it, so I'm not going to stop"...yeah, that isn't the same thing at all, and it's completely useless. And Summer is not the court of All Fight All The Time, they're about protecting others through might. Stopping conflict is just as important as winning conflicts.

I think I'm getting too bogged down in details. I don't like that the court contracts and by association the courts are just being blended in together in one homogeneous contract. I don't like that all of the powers are getting watered down to lesser/no usefulness compared to what they were before. I don't like that the entire set of contracts is being reworked to "I change passions", because that should not be the only emotions people feel. I don't think that courts that were founded separately and are in canon supposed to be so distinct and diametrically opposed should suddenly be able to share the others' power. It really strikes me as off that it would be three times easier for a summer courtier to make contracts with winter's emotions than it would be for a darkling to make contracts with wizened affinity.
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Re: Contracts of Fleeting Passion

Postby Fox Folger » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:59 am

The Doctor wrote:Except that the fear one is now no longer a protection, but a reactive countermeasure. Which doesn't work if, say, you're already fleeing in terror.

As for summer, draining a person's passion for fighting (even if they have one) one by one, for the entire group, where the only effect will be "oh, I don't have my passion for fighting? Well, I can still do it, so I'm not going to stop"...yeah, that isn't the same thing at all, and it's completely useless. And Summer is not the court of All Fight All The Time, they're about protecting others through might. Stopping conflict is just as important as winning conflicts.

I think I'm getting too bogged down in details. I don't like that the court contracts and by association the courts are just being blended in together in one homogeneous contract. I don't like that all of the powers are getting watered down to lesser/no usefulness compared to what they were before. I don't like that the entire set of contracts is being reworked to "I change passions", because that should not be the only emotions people feel. I don't think that courts that were founded separately and are in canon supposed to be so distinct and diametrically opposed should suddenly be able to share the others' power. It really strikes me as off that it would be three times easier for a summer courtier to make contracts with winter's emotions than it would be for a darkling to make contracts with wizened affinity.


They weren't founded separately, that's not how founding a court paradigm works.

Also, where are you getting this "share other's power" nonsense? You still need Autumn mantle 1 to get fleeting autumn 2.

Edit: Or goodwill 3
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Re: Contracts of Fleeting Passion

Postby The Doctor » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:27 pm

Sorry, then twice as easy. Not three times.

I just really don't like how we're taking all the emotion contracts and making them worse, just to make them unified and to showcase the passion mechanic.
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Re: Contracts of Fleeting Passion

Postby Enkindel » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:27 pm

The Doctor wrote:Sorry, then twice as easy. Not three times.

I just really don't like how we're taking all the emotion contracts and making them worse, just to make them unified and to showcase the passion mechanic.


How, exactly, is making them all operate like Fleeting Spring-- the best emotion contract-- making them all worse? Yes, maybe it weakens the fourth dot clauses of Summer and Autumn a little, but look at them holistically-- for example, fleeting Autumn 2 already did the exact same thing as Fleeting Spring 2 (with a much narrower focus), except is *also* took an extended action to pull off. The hell?

And, if I'm understanding this right, the fact that Fleeting is now a form contract doesn't change the EXP you have to sink into getting them at all. Someone with Goodwill doesn't get out of court contracts at affinity costs, and hence they don't get them at half price-- besides, even if they did, that's a total exp investment (assuming you've already purchased fleeting 4 in your court) of 4 (first dot of contract; 7/2)+12 (three dots of court goodwill)+ 7 (second dot; 14/2)+8 (fourth dot of court goodwill)+ 11 (third dot; 21/2)+ 10 (fifth dot of court goodwill)+ 14 (fourth dot of contract; 28/2)=66, not to mention the fact that getting the fourth dot in an out of court contract is impossible. Versus 7+14+21+28=70. Yes, its easier to get out of court contracts you have the goodwill for, but its hardly twice as easy to do, and it makes a degree of sense that someone who's heavily invested in changeling politics can slightly more easily access some of the mystical benefits of the courts.

That said, I would miss Fleeting Spring's keen "I make a thing out of your desire" ability (even if Fleeting Passion 3 does do something very similar to it). Should figure out a way to work that back in somewhere.
Last edited by Enkindel on Mon May 02, 2011 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Contracts of Fleeting Passion

Postby Fetch » Mon May 02, 2011 11:12 am

There are two issues at stake.

One) Thematics and fluff. Dose giving all the courts a similar tool weaken their thematics? Taken to the one extreme I think we're forced to say no. Spring and Summer courtiers buying the Resources Merit doesn't really hurt Court of the East in any way nor dose it cause courtiers who buy it to be blended into the court of the dragon. For that matter the directional courts do all share a Contract and yet have their own themes.

As it is tho the courts do work in very similar ways. Mantle is a common merit who's expression is changed by court. Every court has, in the core book, two Contracts, Fleeting and Eternal, covering the same idea for each court. Hell, if you want to start a court you cannot do it unless you have some friends who also want to start "opposing" courts to form a cycle. A form Contract that is accessible to courtiers of different courts clearly fits right in to the setting in so far as the courts are part of a larger whole.

So the question isn't whether the courts should have common mechanics who's expression is changed based on the users court (Mantle). It's whether replacing the current set of Fleeting x's with a form Contract is a desirable (or acceptable) change.
• It would mean all the courts get the same suit of emotional manipulation powers instead of their current semi-random collection. From the thematic perspective it doesn't change much. I can detect, enhance, lower, or change your emotions.
• Being a form Contract dose have implications. It tells us that each of these courts works in a similar way, that each offers similar forms of empowerment to it's followers. In RAW this is true, hence why there are such similar Fleeting x's to rip out. Giving it as favored to Seasonal Courtiers has further implications, specifically that emotions are more important to those courts than to others. Whether or not this is a good implication depends on your reading of the other courts but I feel it's appropriate.
• Setting diversity. One of the things I really like about Changeling is the great amount of diversity and this would increase it. So you have your esoteric court contracts(LoS), probably bound by the founders before they made the court, your more standardized(Eternal) dealing with common aspects of the court, and you also have form Contracts, not with the courts themselves but got their endorsement, see. It means there's even more ways to look at the courts and contracts as they have a wider range of ways the two interact.

• And on the negative, there's the idea that this weakens the court themes. I'd like a concrete example of how having a form contract with variants for each court weakens the themes compared to the RAW "every court has the same two contracts but adapted to it's emotion and physical manifestation."



Two) Mechanics. First up I'd like to reiterate that no-one uses Fleeing Summer or Fleeting Winter past the first dot or Fleeting Autumn past the second dot. It's not like I'm talking about changing the ever popular Contracts of Stone or Elements or Fang and Talon, or even the Eternal court contracts which have been used by about one character each. In fact I specifically like the idea that the Eternal contracts are named thus by changelings as a reference to the single unified Fleeting X rather then them being unified themselves.

The Doctor wrote:I just really don't like how we're taking all the emotion contracts and making them worse, just to make them unified and to showcase the passion mechanic.

Bryce, you should know better. This is an unsustainable position. To pick on your choice Contracts old Fleeting Summer 1 - 3 let you detect the greatest source of wrath nearby and make someone angry at anything nearby. Proposed Fleeting Summer 1 & 2 would let you tell what things a person get angry at and make them angry at anything. Level 4. Old lets you stop combat for Wyrd rounds. New lets you turn a loyalists anger against their master and give them -x to all tests to serve their Fae lord.
Autumn 4 is fine to get resistance against (not immunity to) fear but that's not inherently more powerful than being able to both increase and decrease peoples fear, especially as that's two levels of fear resistance compared to fear illusions and fear increase/decrease.

So from there it's a question of making the Contract mechanically solid. I picked on the levels and concepts that are the most used and fit well. That doesn't mean it's the only way to do it. If there's more evocative powers to represent emotion that the one's I've listed those might be worked in in place of something already in there.
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