Rules under consideration

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Re: Rules under consideration

Postby The Doctor » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:29 am

Accidental deaths, but not from completely trivial injuries. I just thought it would be amusing to see every game in the headlines "ANOTHER CHILD DIES DUE TO TWISTED ANKLE IN P.E. CLASS".

And don't you heal a bashing every 15 minutes?
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Re: Rules under consideration

Postby Delphinan » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:31 am

Mercy rule? When drawing, the victim (appropriate no?) could choose to take the remainder of the pool's draws as one success each. So an initial first draw that explodes with 8/9/10-again a few times might not destroy the character completely if they choose at that point to just take one success/rest of pool rather than chance their luck again.

I'm leery of the idea over all. It is based on the damage dealt, aggravated by the target's stamina, hopefully mollified by a willpower addition, which makes it very very hard to survive game-to-game as there are PCs, NPCs and weapons that are guaranteed to have a minimum of 5 successes on any given attack. From the chart, assuming those five wounds become four or five successes with 9-again, yields deadly wounds on a frequent basis, that require constant care to heal for next game only to be subject to happening again. To me, this becomes the foundation for making sure to hit something overwhelmingly before it hits you.

On a side note, it does show why there are so few Summer courtiers...they would frequently never survive their meetings or are immediately hospitalized in critical condition. :D

On the other end of the scale, doesn't this chart yield a player base full of scars where every bashing damage event has a 50-50 or more shot of becoming a scar or loss of pinky? Could someone go over an example of being hit for one bashing on this chart?
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Re: Rules under consideration

Postby Fetch » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:31 am

One to three Bashing damage is what you get from being hit in the head with a baseball bat, not stubbing your toe. One day at the Rocknasium I had a bad fall, lets call it 1 Bashing, and once I got home and the adrenaline faded I found my ankle was twisted and I couldn't walk*. Or to put it another way it's not that some kid dies of a twisted ankle, it's that they fall, suffer some Bashing, and then due to an unlucky injury draw it turns out the impact caused swelling in their brain killing them rather than the more expected and statistically likely twisted ankle.
* true story altho it might have been 2 Bashing



In terms of number of fights/damage, I think you're confusing where this would be applied. At the end of a scene in which a character took damage they'd make an injury test to see if there's anything serious (ie crippling) or if it's all shock. For example after Matthew got to safety with Theo he'd make a test on a pool of 5(the number of points of damage he had). If he got 3 or less, well, the bullet apparently missed anything notable. However if he drew enough for 1 success(4-6) then the bullet might have dealt cosmetic/vestigial damage, 2 successes(7-9) might be dangerous but redundant, say a punctured lung, and only on 4 successes(draw of 15+) would he actually be falling down and dying. He would not have an automatic 5 to distribute along the injury chart.


Yah, Bashing heals in 15 and most Scenes last 10 to 20 minuets, hence healing 1 damage during a scene. Yah yah, we often push the definition of "scene" to let powers stay up longer and not worry about re-casting, paying again, ext. For now I'm ignoring that :)
Maybe we need a new WWish duration term for at the end of the fight or end of similar active period. It would be a useful distinction between a scene which can quite drag on, and a round which is very short.
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Re: Rules under consideration

Postby The Doctor » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:58 am

Side note: changelings don't scar unless they wish to. But sucks for the rest of the splats!

If we're going down the route of "even relatively minor injuries can have lasting effects", then I think that it should go both ways, there should be some way of having a person take great amounts of physical abuse with no lasting effects.

The human body (well, maybe not yours, Lucas) can realistically take a ton of punishment without much ill effects, particularly with bashing. To put a counterexample, Forest and I were hiking one time in the mountains when he fell off a cliff he was trying to climb. Then tumbled down a talus slope (that's a hillside made of rocks). I had to carry him down the mountain because only one of his limbs could do any work (despite the adrenaline), but once we got him down the mountain, bandaged up, and specifically cleaned out and took care of the avulsion on his heel (right, he was barefoot when this happened), he was able to walk about and do things that evening.

It's easy to explode high and have inconsequential injuries turn out tragic, but no room for the opposite.
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Re: Rules under consideration

Postby Fetch » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:31 am

Health -1 Agg could draw 1's and turn out to be nothing serious. On Joe Average with Stamina 2 6 Agg would need to draw a 2 or less (20%) to turn out to be no big deal where 1 Bashing would need a 8+ (30%) to be anything lasting and about 2 10's (1%) to risk being fatal (brain full of Bashing) or 3 10's (0.1%) for the instant death. I'd say that Forest and his 3-6 Bashing (assuming he took a real beating coming down) are quite well covered in the realm of possibility.

You'd need to have damage up around 12 to have a mere 1% chance of it turning out to be nothing and hence mirror the 1 Bashing chance of being fatal. Less and you're more likely to get nothing from your serious beating then you are to die of the 1 Bashing.

I will grant I probably suffer worse luck than most in terms of stuff turning out bad, as evidenced by my many broken bones from what should have been minor impacts, but I would like to reiterate for all the "x took allot of damage and was fine the next day" stories that if it was less painful than an aluminum baseball bat to the head(or body part in question) that it's probably 3 Bashing or less and hence under this system would have 50% or more chance of doing nothing beyond the initial shock.
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Re: Rules under consideration

Postby Fetch » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:55 am

Since the discussion has slowed down some so what I'm currently looking at.

The test to determine crippling injuries at the end of the scene has a base pool of damage taken and gets +1 for each health dots Bashing, Stamina Lethal, or 1 Agg taken beyond the health track (Ignores the normal +5 cap but hurting someone at full Agg is considered extended test with the usual base pool limit on number of draws?). If the last box in the health track is filled the test is modded as follows: Bashing = 9A, Lethal = 8A, Agg = 8A + Rote.

Excessive damage dose wrap around the health track but there is no auto unconsciousness or death. Instead once the health track is full characters would start making Resolve + Stamina (- appropriate penalties such as pain) tests to remain active with failure dropping them into total shock (similar to blacking out but more realistic).
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Re: Rules under consideration

Postby Fox Folger » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:58 pm

Should incorporate stamina into the cripple track somehow. Maybe subtract your stam from the pool to introduce an injury.

Has the dual effect of making pumping stamina not totally worthless in the new system, while at the same time making it more useful than it was in the old system.

Also need a way to make the Elemental blessing not suck even more.
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Re: Rules under consideration

Postby Fetch » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:35 am

Stamina and total health dots are both useful once you've filled your health track as they determine the rate at which additional beating pumps up the injury pool (+1 per health dots Bashing or Stamina Lethal). In general tho you'll be better off with the Stamina than without.

As discussed previously, if one guy has Stam 1 and another has Stam 4+ and they both take 9 Bashing then the high Stam guy has a pool of 9 for injury but that pool of 6 on the low Stam guy inflicts worse crippling injuries and has 9-again. It's not perfect but the high pool averages 2 successes of Bashing crippling while the pool of 6 averages 1 successes of Lethal crippling which can be traded down for 2 successes Bashing crippling.

Our Stamina 1 hypothetical is worse off at 6 B (9A), about the same at 7 B (9A is about like +1), better off at 8 B (still taking Bashing injuries), and about the same off at 9 B again (as above), and continues to fluctuate about. This looks only at the injury pool at the end of the scene, however, and not at the penalties during the fight. At 6 B Stam1 is suffering -3 compared to the no penalty for Stam4 and has to succeed a test at -1 to 3 (after pain) each action or succumb to shock (ie fall unconscious) both of with mean he's unlikely to keep taking as little damage as Stam4, assuming our attackers are trying to kill them both.

I did think of subtracting Stamina from the injury pool but then injury became a factor of Size alone which I didn't like. The way I view it isn't that high Stamina means you're more like to get hurt but that you can take more damage and keep going, only noticing later that you're bleeding, and I suspect that pain penalties and shock will back this up in play. Assuming we're talking about the winning side normally you don't get beaten more after you go down (after 6 damage for Stam1, after 9 for Stam4) as the foe is busy getting killed by your friends and can't finish you off. In this case Stam1 is likely to have about 6 damage and Stam4 is likely to have however much more they took after Stam1 wend down, or, Stam1 got hit twice and dropped, Stam4 got hit three times before dropping the competition. Stam4 suffers more injury not because high Stamina is unhelpful but because high Stamina makes you so badass you can take a serious beating and keep on going.

edit: Oh yes, and the Elemental Blessing... Right now it's good for winning a fight and then dying as it wears off. After revision it will be good for... winning a fight and then either dying or suffering(revealing) terrible crippling injuries as it wears off...
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Re: Rules under consideration

Postby The Doctor » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:23 pm

So looking at all this, there's an idea for health track revision that I'd like to throw out here.
One health track, no wraparound, worst damage always goes to the left on the track. Using the same modifiers Lucas had for determining passing out/shock/crippling injuries relating to what type of damage is in your last health box, test pool capped at your maximum health levels but changing the +1 to +2 to the crippling injury draw for each health level suffered beyond the standard health track (which didn't make much sense before, as there was wraparound).
With that modification, higher stamina characters are always the same or better no matter how much damage has been taken, and high stamina provides a benefit even after both health tracks have been surpassed.
Examples: stamina 1 stamina 5 dudes again! Both take 7 bashing. Dude A has a health track of //////|/, dude B has /////// |. End of the scene, dude A has a test pool of 6+2 9A for determining crippling injury, dude B has a pool of 7, as it's still all within his health track. Bump the damage up to 2 agg, 5 lethal, and 5 bashing, dude A has a health track of **XXXX|X/////, and dude B has a health track of **XXXXX///|//. End of scene, dude A has a test pool of 6+12 8A and dude B has a pool of 10+4 9A. Both are coming away with injuries, and dude A's will be particularly nasty with a high chance of 5+ successes and exploding, but in the book system he would've been straight up dead several damage ago, and even dude B would've been one bashing away from bleeding out with wounds that would take 3 weeks to fully heal.



Thinking on elemental blessing - since it's supposed that you've been broken down and reforged harder, what are thoughts on changing the activation to adding wyrd to stamina when determining passing out/crippling injuries?
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Re: Rules under consideration

Postby Fetch » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:24 am

Damage in excess of the damage track would be after you've wrapped around to full Agg, in my suggestion.

On to your idea. The risk of open ended damage is that the injury test could get vary high vary fast. On the other hand it's basically treating extended beatings as more successes which can be traded to increase the damage type on the crippling effect instead of getting the same successes with higher damage. It could definitely work.

I'd say +1 per damage past the track with no wrap-around. Low Stamina is worse off on account of the 9/8A and wound penalties and testing against falling into shock. The one change I'm thinking is that instead of damage in the last three health boxes inflicting pain penalties you'd get pain penalties of -1 per Bashing beyond your health boxes, -2 per Lethal beyond, and -3 per Agg beyond(which would be very rare). That way getting hit with fists and baseball bats for a long time can bring down even the toughest people after they get beaten enough.

As for the Elemental blessing I could see activation giving bonus Health boxes as it dose now, then those boxes could be ignored for the injury test, hence making them stay up longer without the drawback of worse injuries.
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