Social Rules Idea

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Social Rules Idea

Postby Fetch » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:33 pm

The detailed combat rules vs very loose ideas of what mundane social ability can do tend to imbalance gameplay in favor of physical combat when it comes to important rules. I need (under the old health boxes) 6 to 11 successes with a gun to kill someone. 6 to 11 successes spread out over several Persuasion tests lets me convince someone of... something...

As a companion of sorts to the other rules idea thread I was thinking of nailing down some social rules to clearly define just what a social character can do. Give combat a little more long term risk, give a clear way to settle things without fighting, win win imo. Without further ado:

The social system is defined largely by Sway (your ability to sway people to your will), Ideals (things you believe), and Passions (emotions you feel). For most social actions Ideals and Passions act as equipment bonus for the challenger ("If you loved me you'd do it") and armor for the defender ("I can't kill him, I'd never kill anyone!"). Characters should probably also get a social defense of some kind, lower of Resolve and Composure perhaps?

Sway
First the aggressor decides what they wish the defender to do. This is translated as a level of Sway and should be defined with a number of steps or compromises according to the chart below:

1 - a simple action that costs the person little, giving a dollar to a bum
2 - an action with potential negative consequences in the short term, giving up your weekend hunting trip to help a frienemy move
3 - risk of mid to long term consequences for the action in question, helping with intimidation with a low risk of getting shot at or loosing your car in a crazy scheme
4 - risk of long term injury or consequences, helping get revenge on a rival gang, risking one's job for the party
5 - fundamentally dangerous or actions that are themselves consequences, getting beaten or shot to gain the party access to a certain hospital, quitting a good job

So for example demanding an apprentice revile some of their masters secrets might require a level 4 Sway. The lower steps/compromises might be 3 - giving the less vital secrets but keeping the important ones, 2 - reviling where the secrets might be stored rather than the secrets themselves, and finally 1 - simply keeping the request secret.
Successes translate into the degree of Sway generated so if our spy gets 3 Successes they can get the level 3 compromise. What if our apprentice doesn't even want to divulge minor information? Sway is not mind control, just very convincing arguments. One can force themselves to go against even the most persuasive requests if they have the will to resist. A character may buy down the Sway on them at a cost of one Willpower point per level. For 1 Willpower our apprentice can buy down from level 3 to level 2 only revealing where confidential information can be found and for 2 Willpower they might only agree to keep the conversation secret to save face. This buy down of Sway can be done any time after the Sway is generated and once a given request has been bought down the subject need not pay again to ignore further similar requests in that Scene. You've firmly set your own corse and will not be Swayed by that argument again.

Three (or less, if the apprentice spent wp) Sway doesn't get our spy everything they want. They may try to pile argument on argument, bribe on bribe. This lets them buy up the Sway if they are successful. A single Success would boost level 3 Sway to the desired level 4. However if our apprentice had bought down the Sway, say to level 2, then they can freely resist the level 3 compromise making a single Success ineffective.

By default Sway lasts for a Scene. After this a character may or may not decide to continue with the Sway but mechanically the force of the argument has faded. Sometimes however a Scene is not long enough. In this case Sway duration may be increased by spending successes to increase the duration. When resisting Sway with increased duration a character need only spend Willpower to resist the Sway levels, not Successes spent on Duration.

Duration of Sway:
+0 - up to a scene
+1 - up to a day
+2 - up to threeish days
+3 - up to a week
+4 - up to a month
+5 - up to a year

Unacceptable Orders - Some things you just can't ask of someone. These things are referred to as Unacceptable Orders and may be resisted without spending Willpower, even if this requires dropping Sway by multiple levels. By default outright suicidal actions (jumping off a building, not just dangerous actions) are Unacceptable Orders for everyone. Individual characters may have additional actions which constitute Unacceptable Orders for them, as defined in Ideals and Passions.

Ideals
Most people have something they believe in, if not an outright higher calling. These beliefs are called Ideals. For each dot of Morality a character chooses an Ideal, a standard of behavior, such as "never betray a trust", "always pay your debts", or "abandoning a comrade in battle is wrong", and arrays these Ideals as per sins but with only one on each level.

In social challenges the Ideal on the characters highest Morality level has a value of 1 as equipment bonus or "armor". The Ideal on the next level down is potency 2, next 3, and so on. Any Ideal that would have a value of 6+ instead is treated as having a value of 5 and any action that would violate the Ideal is considered an Unacceptable Order.

The "sins" on the morality chart represent actions and situations that inflict enough stress on the psyche to harm it. In it's extreme we call this harm PTSD but the loss of just a little is more often written off as loss of innocence and with that loss of innocence one looses their higher ideals in favor of more basic passions. Actions that would be sins against Mortality gain protection as if they were Ideals at their same level.
By the same token characters that act against their Ideals are betraying their own believes and must test against degeneration as if they committed a sin of the level the Ideal is on.

Each session a character may swap any adjacent pair of Ideals or replace the Ideal on their current Morality level with a new one. In addition a social argument getting a number of Successes equal to Resolve may cause one of a characters Ideals to swap up or down or replace their value 1 Ideal. Such social tests always subtract the higher Ideal that would be effected as Armor.

Meditation gaining 16 - Morality level of Ideal successes can allow a character to swap an additional pair of Ideals.

Passions
Ideals are those things a character believes, Passions are what they feel. Passions have a feeling, a subject, and an intensity from 1 to 5 dictating the Passions equipment and armor bonus. For example a married character likely has feelings of Loving Devotion to their Spouse (5), indicating a strong sense of love for this individual.

Passions with an intensity of 1 are transitory Passions. You walk past an ice cream parlor and get a craving for chocolate. They are minor feelings that last up to a Scene. Intensity 2 indicates short term Passions, lasting from a Scene to a several days. These Passions are not recorded on the character sheet and may be declared on the fly. Once declared tho they must be lived with. A passing craving for coffee provides armer against the fairest attempting to get you to join them in a bar but could be turned to bonus if they change tactics and invite you down to the nearest cafe with them.

Passions of intensity 3 and above are long term Passions and form a cornerstone of personality. There is a limit to one's ability to hold long term feelings however. Spend enough time away from somebody and chances are seeing them again won't mean much. Each character gets a number of long term Passions equal to their Willpower dots + 10 - Morality. Long term Passions are arranged in a list with the top third (round down) being intensity 5, the next third 4, and the rest 3. Characters with empty spaces on the list may add new Passions to the bottom of the list on the fly.

Each session a character may bump Passions up or down on the list a number of times equal to their Composure, so Composure 3 would let someone bump one Passion up/down by 3 spots or bump 3 Passions up/down by one spot each. A bump could also be used to replace the bottom Passion on the list with a (formerly) short term Passion that is now more important to them, to broaden or contract the subject of a Passion*, or to change the feelings for the target. When someone you love betrays your trust it's easier to hate them than to stop caring. Every 5 successes on an extended Meditation test can provide an additional bump.
* A new parent might broaden their love for their spouse to be love for their family to now include the child.

Others may influence your Passions as well. A successful social test may generate a new transitory Passion or turn a transitory Passion into a short term Passion lasting a number of days equal to the Successes achieved. An existing short or long term Passion may be targeted and bumped up or down up to once per success. Bumping a short term Passion down reduces it's duration by one day per bump until it is a mere transitory Passion while the first bump up causes it to replace the bottom long term Passion from which point it may be further elevated on the subjects list of Passions. Changing the emotion of a Passion is a separate action requiring Composure Successes to be fully effective altho less Successes can add or remove an adjective and thus the "flavor" of the Passion (Bitter Hatred -> Hatred). In either case tests to bump or change Passions suffer the Passion as armor. It's hard to convince someone to give up or change their long term hatred of the person that killed their parents.

Passions have a few advantages and drawbacks in addition to their use in social tests. First, spending Willpower on Heroic Effort gives a bonus of +3 or one channeled Passions intensity, whichever is higher (or it could just give +Passion). However just as one can fight harder for something they truly want they tend to hold back or shy away from those things they don't want. Passions always inflict a penalty equal to their intensity on actions that go against the Passion. If one fears tigers fighting one is probably a bad idea as a jittery phobia is not good for survival.

In addition to standard Passions characters may have any number of Irrationalities, largely serving the role Derangements serve now. These are treated as Passions but have a few differences. They do not take up room on a character's list of longer term Passions. They cannot normally be lowered in intensity altho extensive therapy or similar might help get rid of them (they can be raised normally altho a successful test only raises their intensity by 1). Their emotion and subject cannot normally be changed. Any Sway that would go against an Irrationality is considered an Unacceptable Order.

Irrationalities are gained when a character fails a derangement test after loosing Morality* with one of their existing Passions being elevated to Irrationality or a new one being generated appropriate to the situation. Irrationalities, like PTSD, aren't inherently inappropriate responses but become such when taken outside the context they were formed in. Fearing loud noises and hating the enemy is simple survival while at war but, if they become Irrationalities, are a serious problem when they are brought home in peace time.
* Or in any other situation that might inflict a Derangement, such as looking Cathulu in the eye.

If a character has multiple conflicting Irrationalities they may gain one of the extreme Derangements as their mind fractures under the stress of conflicting data it cannot purge.

Social Test Construction
Social test pools are first constructed in the usual way, Attribute + Skill + Specialty - Social Defense (if they see it coming, Subterfuge is totally social Stealth). The aggressor then declares any of the defenders Passions or Ideals they are trying to use as equipment. A certain amount of leeway is given as the aggressor doesn't know exactly what's on the sheet but basing an argument on a changelings fear of the Fae is likely useful even if their sheet says "fear beyond measure." However each Passion or Ideal that doesn't exist inflicts a -2 as they weaken their argument with ideas that the defender doesn't care about. Finally the defender lists any Passions or Ideals that help to defend them against the social action and these are subtracted from the aggressors pool.

Just Walking Away - Often the safest answer to physical confrontation is to simply run. Likewise a character who faces overwhelming social presser can, assuming they maintain freedom of movement, choose to walk away before the test is thrown and the conversation gets underway. Once the conversation/test has occurred the character is convinced and must except the results.

Swaying Crowds, playing to the masses - You can effect multiple people with a single Social test but suffer a -1 (a tightly knit family) to -5 (everyone who perceives the work) penalty depending on the broadness of the group in question. The effectiveness of the work may vary from person to person based on which Passions/Ideals they posses and what they resist the argument with. However people are not a mass of brainwashed drones buying whatever the last billboard had on it. This is due to the greatest difficulty in mass media; most people will choose to just walk away from most undirected social actions, such as adds, propaganda, and political speeches. It's allot easier to avoid adds online with an add-blocker of just flat out ignoring them than it is to ignore a person talking directly to you.

the Social Skills (and Attributes)
A few notes on the Social Skills as they apply to the new system, cuz physical combat has rigorously defined uses for the physical Skills. Mostly this is for consideration of the roles of the different traits as currently the Social section of the game is a bit of a jumbled mess. It's not necessarily exclusive definitions.

Charisma - Used for tests of a direct approach, such as strait up asking for the help you want.

Manipulation - Sometimes you need to ask on the sly, use some reverse physiology or otherwise get what you want in a shifty manner.

Animal Ken - Dose everything you need animals to do, within the limits of their comprehension.

Empathy - Good for getting a read on people and sussing out their Ideals and Passions. Successes on a test can determine subjects, emotions, and intensities of Passions, whether or not they are Irrationalities, as well as Ideals and the value of the Ideal.

Expression - Good for crafting social works, speeches, songs, and other works that effect Passions or Ideals in a wide audience.

Intimidation - Influences Passions or induces Sway by means of intimation and playing on fear, anger, and other emotions in the "destructive" spectrum.

Persuasion - The perfect Skill for generating Sway of all types as well as changing Ideals.

Socialize - Good for manipulating Passions and Sway in a mannor opposite Intimidation.

Streetwise - Has always been more at place amongst the mental Skills given that it's mostly knowledge...

Subterfuge - Social Stealth, lets you hide intentions, Passions and Ideals, and anything else that needs hiding. Also good for launching "surprise attacks" in the social arena. Start the conversation in one direction and then quickly turn about to get past defenses and secure a quick if underhanded agreement.
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Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby The Doctor » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:57 am

Some of it I like, some of it I really don't. Let's start with what I do like, that's simpler. I like the concept of ideals and passions. It's innovative, gives meaning to the morality scale rather than just a "point-where-murder-doesn't-affect-you-anymore". It makes characters so much more diverse and real. Dr. Brown becomes a war-hardened veteran who would do anything to protect his family, rather than just some old guy with 8 strength and 8 brawl. Concept's good, and from at least cursory reading it seems pretty solid, I'll have to think more on what I feel about all the swapping.

As for what I don't...What I liked about the social conflicts in game was that it was contested and extended. Both people could argue against each other, back and forth, until the goal was reached, loser having to give major concessions with the victor still having to give minor concessions based on how many successes the other got. I don't like resisted actions being the basis for normal challenge interaction, it favors the aggressor far too much.

This really changes the aspect of social interaction into combat where the only results are changing your character's concepts or willpower drain, both of which I really dislike with a passion.
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Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Fetch » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:56 pm

First I'd just like to say I predicted your reaction in so far as Passions/Ideals better, Sway bad.

Passions and Ideals - you have to have some way to change it but you shouldn't be able to just up and change everything at once. Limiting the swapping means it takes time for things to change. Meditation can allow more change so if someone really wants to change they can do so faster. System is better than handwave IMO. You can always bend(ie handwave) the system when the situation calls for it, but not necessarily apply a uniform standard where none exists.

The Doctor wrote:As for what I don't...What I liked about the social conflicts in game was that it was contested and extended. Both people could argue against each other, back and forth, until the goal was reached, loser having to give major concessions with the victor still having to give minor concessions based on how many successes the other got. I don't like resisted actions being the basis for normal challenge interaction, it favors the aggressor far too much.

What you say sounds fine but isn't how the system works now. Right now there is no real system at all. For the places in the book where it suggests an extended test, seduction for example, you either win or you don't. Now if you're just describing how people talk things back and forth and not the rules, well, the rules would not be a replacement for that but rather a system to fall back on when you aren't sure how your character would respond or when you just want to breeze thru something like interrogating an NPC and not take time on it; Just the same stuff we use social tests for now.

As for system in action, yes, it's aggressor favored because that's how the game is built. However it's not like you have to just sit there and take it any more than it dose in combat. In most situations where people are throwing social tests I expect both/all sides would be throwing them. For example in a negotiation both sides might be trying to sway the other to give them more stuff. One person might try to Sway the other to sleep with them while person B looks to change A's Passions to include B for a longer term relationship.
Also on the topic of give and take it's useful to remember that offering Sway with compromises is more likely to be acceptable by the subject and thus less likely to get overturned with Willpower. Continuing our apprentice example from above, level 4 Sway to give up the masters secrets is probably getting shutdown cold. Level 4 Sway to give up the masters secrets in exchange for $10,000? Now that's something the apprentice might just roll with.

The Doctor wrote:This really changes the aspect of social interaction into combat where the only results are changing your character's concepts or willpower drain, both of which I really dislike with a passion.

So it'll increase what you can do in combat, socially, a thousand fold :roll:
More to the point it'll give you options in combat that aren't pure handwavium and gives a good systematic way to represent the old intimidation argument "some people respond to fear by running, others by attacking". Traditionally this has meant anybody who can't fight runs and anyone who can continues to kick your ass making your intimidation a wast of time on anyone worth trying to scare. Now we can break it down as some people respond by going with the Sway (running), other burn the Willpower which means they have less to beat you with and can't spend on other things that round.

Besides, once someone is out of Willpower you can Sway them quite a bit and they can't do much until they get more. If they resist the intimidation to run maybe they'll at least take the time to try and make a bargain before killing you. No? Well if your going to kill me you should at least fight me one on one, call off your goons, it's not like you need them.
Mind you pretty much all social actions should be at a penalty in a fight as everyone is busy fighting, not listening.
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Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby The Doctor » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:21 pm

Concidentally, I had been reading the LARP core NWoD book last week, and was really surprised by the detail they gave to social interaction, and was what I was basing that comment they have there. Both parties state their goals (concessions to get out of the other party) and start negotiation. Once target success mark has been reached by one party, victor gets their concessions out of the loser, and the loser gets losersuccesses/victorsuccesses concessions or concessions blocks. (so if the loser had gotten half as many successes as the victor, they could get half their stated concessions, or use them to deny victor concessions). If both parties reach the success mark at the same time, then both parties can either agree to make 1 concession each and restart the negotiations from scratch or the negotiation is over.

...just saying. I've never seen these used, as I doubt anyone knows about them, but that's our fault for not reading, not the system's. It is in there.


I don't have a problem with Sway as a concept, I like it a lot. I dislike the fact that it's just resisted, which pretty much means it can do whatever it wants. Because multiple stat offense offense + card draw stacks way higher than one single stat of defense with no card draw.

And yes, I agree the system is aggressive favored (though truly, it's numbers-favored above all), but in combat there is still defensive stat stacking and options. You can sacrifice your offense for double defense. You can wear armor. You can get behind cover. You can have environmental penalties. Supernaturally, there are a bunch of powers that protect you from harm. With your proposed social system you can...hope that what they're telling you to do will violate one of your core ideals.

I also dislike that you cannot choose to simply ignore a person. Or not engage socially. Rather, I specifically dislike the combination that it's completely offense-dominated(specifically, initiator-dominated) and that you cannot choose to not participate. Or maybe it's the combination of those two and that they can demand inane/terrible things and willpower drain. And can willpower drain repeatedly. And if you ever run out (which can easily be after just one test for any social character), they can demand you do anything and there's nothing you can do. I don't like that you can't just say no, that being defensive isn't an option. You'll just get willpower-drained and then made someone's bitch. Your only recourse is to try to screw them out of their willpower harder and faster than they can do to you.
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Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Fetch » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:46 am

The Doctor wrote:Stuff from the LARP book

I must admite I haven't read the Skill descriptions from the LARP book. I assume you're referencing the "Cutting a Deal" example from Persuasion*? It's better than anything I recall from the table top book and not bad over all it's altho still almost complete handwavium.

I want to keep my family alive and you want to sacrifice my firstborn to a dark god? I win but have to give you half your desire in concessions? What dose that even mean? I give you my kid from the waist down? It's not much better the other way. You win and so get to kill my kid for your god but have to give me half of what I want, ie for my kid to live?

Besides, you get largely the same result as "Cutting a Deal" with Sway. I want level 4 Sway result from you, your want a level 4 Sway result from me. We each roll and our successes tell us how much we can get from the other. If you get your 4 successes you have your Sway but will be giving concessions equal to the 2 successes worth of Sway I got, assuming neither of us spend Willpower.

* The other examples I saw on the way to looking that up were still as I remember strait up win/loose with the results being largely handwavium.


Remember, Sway may be resisted like combat damage but you do have three big advantages. First, you can always burn Willpower to negate the result of Sway you don't like. In tough situations this even acts as durability against further attempts at the same Sway as your opponent would then need to jump past the level's you've Willpowered or you can freely ignore it.

Second. Chances are anything important an opponent is trying to get you to do will run against one or more Passions/Ideals. They'll be facing pretty big penalties if the try to get you to do anything you're against. "I believe stealing is wrong for -3 and love my spouse for -5, with my soc defense of -2 that puts you at -10." The idea is that a strong social character will even the odds by figuring out things you do care about that can help their case but that's specifically their responsibility, you don't need to help them there. If they can even the odds with things you care about or if you don't have anything against the action then why exactly should you be unlikely to do as they (persuasively) ask?

Third. You can always just ignore them. If you don't like what their saying you can Just Walk Away and refuse to let them talk you into anything.



The Doctor wrote:I also dislike that you cannot choose to simply ignore a person. Or not engage socially. Rather, I specifically dislike the combination that it's completely offense-dominated(specifically, initiator-dominated) and that you cannot choose to not participate. Or maybe it's the combination of those two and that they can demand inane/terrible things and willpower drain. And can willpower drain repeatedly. And if you ever run out (which can easily be after just one test for any social character), they can demand you do anything and there's nothing you can do. I don't like that you can't just say no, that being defensive isn't an option. You'll just get willpower-drained and then made someone's bitch. Your only recourse is to try to screw them out of their willpower harder and faster than they can do to you.

See "Just Walk Away". You can ignore them. Now if they have you trapped somewhere, say an interrogation room? There's a reason you lock someone up when trying to break their will. It makes it harder for them to avoid listening to you.
Heck, you can even ignore their social attempt by punching them right in the mouth to shut them up.

Yes, they can Willpower drain but a) Willpower is the mechanical measurement of how stubborn your character is, if their out then they should be pliable, and b) you can resist the Sway at any time.
Say they demand you kill your wife. You've got nothing serious against killing (ie you're low enough morality it doesn't freak you out to the point of being Unacceptable Order) and your love for her isn't Irrational. Chances are you'll have to leave their presence to do the job and so after your out of sight and grabbing the gun you can spend the Willpower to snap to your senses, turn around, and come back to shoot the suave fucker. That's a hell of a lot more resistance than Theo gets against physical combat.
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Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby The Doctor » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:14 pm

Yeah, I was referring to cutting a deal, the seduction one's pretty meh.

In tough situations this even acts as durability against further attempts at the same Sway as your opponent would then need to jump past the level's you've Willpowered or you can freely ignore it.


That actually relieves some of the issue I had with it, it sounded as someone could repeatedly drain you asking for the same/similar/whatever things. Also, you're letting the modifiers from passions/ideals stack beyond 5? Another good thing to know. Both of those help.

And the thing that I like about the one in the book is that you can use your social arguments defensively to cancel theirs, rather than just offensively.


And actually, your example just clarified why I have hesitation for this system. It moves beyond persuasion and into mind control. You can literally walk up to people, say "kill your wife", and they have to go do it. Or, more likely, willpower drain them with a different persuasion, and then tell them to kill their wife.
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Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Fetch » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:28 pm

The Doctor wrote:And actually, your example just clarified why I have hesitation for this system. It moves beyond persuasion and into mind control. You can literally walk up to people, say "kill your wife", and they have to go do it. Or, more likely, willpower drain them with a different persuasion, and then tell them to kill their wife.

Well the social test represents a persuasive and, in the case of anything complex, likely lengthy argument for the action in question. For most people murder is a -5 altho not and Unacceptable Order and I'd certainly hope you love your spouse for -5. Without anything else that's -10 right there. Best human talker in the world will have a pool of 11, drilled down to a chance die by the lowest social defense possible (-1), they'd need to get 5 successes on the Sway, and even if they draw that 50 on a chance die you still only need one or two points of Willpower to drop below murder on the compromises below actually killing your wife. All of that doesn't even matter if you don't stick around to listen.

It's hardly mind control. If someone can get enough bonuses to counteract all that, quite frankly they deserve to be able to talk you into killing your SO, just like Dr Brown deserves to be able to 1-shot elder vampires. At a certain point a character is just that good.
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Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby The Doctor » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:40 pm

Mmkay. Part of my reticence with a lot of this is that it's unexplained and seemingly very hand-wavy. To do Sway, you have to do lengthy arguments? But you said they could be done in combat, which means they could be as short as 3 seconds. At what points can you interrupt during the persuasion test? What does buying down someone's sway partially on an order mean? Does the willpower durability apply to all persuasion tests against you for that scene? That game? Or just persuasion for that same action? For that scene? For that game? From other people, or just that one person?


Also, how do you feel about allowing your Sway successes against them to cancel their Sway successes against you? Or, looking at combat, choosing not to initiate a Sway of your own to allow you to double your (social) defense?
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Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Fetch » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:08 pm

I don't necessarily like quote-slapping people but sometimes I have to.

The Doctor wrote:Mmkay. Part of my reticence with a lot of this is that it's unexplained and seemingly very hand-wavy. To do Sway, you have to do lengthy arguments? But you said they could be done in combat, which means they could be as short as 3 seconds.

Fetch wrote:Well the social test represents a persuasive and, in the case of anything complex, likely lengthy argument for the action in question.

I've been putting thought to how long a social test should take but while one can reasonably try to scare someone away in combat time any argument with a chance of getting someone to kill their spouse is going to need some serious time to make a convincing case.

The Doctor wrote:At what points can you interrupt during the persuasion test?

Fetch wrote:Just Walking Away - Often the safest answer to physical confrontation is to simply run. Likewise a character who faces overwhelming social presser can, assuming they maintain freedom of movement, choose to walk away before the test is thrown and the conversation gets underway. Once the conversation/test has occurred the character is convinced and must except the results.

So before the test goes down, mechanically. In narrative you see the direction of the conversation and think "frack this" before storming off (or punching them).

The Doctor wrote:What does buying down someone's sway partially on an order mean?

Fetch wrote:This is translated as a level of Sway and should be defined with a number of steps or compromises according to the chart below:

...

So for example demanding an apprentice revile some of their masters secrets might require a level 4 Sway. The lower steps/compromises might be 3 - giving the less vital secrets but keeping the important ones, 2 - reviling where the secrets might be stored rather than the secrets themselves, and finally 1 - simply keeping the request secret.

So there should be a number of steps on the Sway up to it's level. If your order is a a level 3 Sway then buying it down with 1 Willpower would mean you disobey the order but instead do the something lesser, beating instead of killing the cop for example.

The Doctor wrote:Does the willpower durability apply to all persuasion tests against you for that scene? That game? Or just persuasion for that same action? For that scene? For that game? From other people, or just that one person?

Fetch wrote:This buy down of Sway can be done any time after the Sway is generated and once a given request has been bought down the subject need not pay again to ignore further similar requests in that Scene. You've firmly set your own corse and will not be Swayed by that argument again.

And to forestal the next question, I state similar instead of same to prevent anything stupid. "Please drink this milk. Please drink this milk with red color in it. Please drink this milk with red and blue color in it. Please drink this milk with red and blue and green color in it..."



And some new territory:
The Doctor wrote:Also, how do you feel about allowing your Sway successes against them to cancel their Sway successes against you?

How would you feel about someone canceling your attack successes with their own attack successes? It makes a certain amount of sense but really I prefer asymmetrical Sway contests, by which I mean we each want something and we each try to Sway the other to that end. The end result (lets say 1 vs 2 successes) isn't one of us winning partially but both of us winning some or all of what we wanted. And really if you just don't want to be Swayed that's what Willpower or Just Walking Away is for.

The Doctor wrote:Or, looking at combat, choosing not to initiate a Sway of your own to allow you to double your (social) defense?

As for sacing your action to double your (social) defense, maybe? Haven't given it allot of thought.
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Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby The Doctor » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:58 pm

Yes, sacrificing action is what I was thinking. I didn't express the thought clearly. I meant I was drawing inspiration from physical combat rules for that.

Now, similar. Talking to an armed guard at a door. "Give me your gun." "No(willpwer)". "Okay, give me your ammo." Would such a thing count?
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