Social Rules Idea

Any Rules questions you want to ask.

Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Fetch » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:30 pm

There's that. Without going all the way to the bottom I'm thinking that as people become more jaded they hold less stock in high minded Ideals and therefor rely more on basic wants, ie Passions. A high morality Idealist fights to overthrow the government because they believe in freedom as a basic right for all (or what have you). A low morality freedom fighter works against the government because they hate the ruling party for the offenses they have committed. The result may be the same but the internal reasons are different. Also I feel it's appropriate in the WoD's gothic morality for the former to give way to the later with a few extreme acts.
User avatar
Fetch
Ring Member
 
Posts: 3922
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:01 pm

Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Fox Folger » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:21 am

Mm. It just seems to me like a sociopath would be running almost exclusively on ideals in a twisted sort of way. They have principles (which probably make no sense to us) but the emotional context is muted--think Chigurh from No Country for Old Men. Or the Sniper. Its not particularly important at any rate, so oh well.

Hm. Here's something cool we could do with this: someone could now make a contract of Ideals or Passions and have a ready made system for such a contract to manipulate. Further, some of Spring's existing contracts might well have effects on Passions (though probably not Ideals). And now Mind mages are even more terrifying.

Edit: Oh god, Contracts of Moon is now actually good-- as a *buffing* contract. If we're replacing derangements with Irrationalities, anything which used to cause a derangement should now cause an irrationality, right? Which means you can now use such contracts to buff people's ability to resist social attacks. With madness. And on the mezzing side, you now have a way of crippling people by taking minor, transitory passions and making people obsessed with them. Just seems more useful to me than slapping derangments on people, which, by their nature, are going to cause almost entirely unpredictable responses (and also have no concrete mechanical impact-- Passions do, since they impart penalties to actions that harm them).

Edit the Second: Reading Fleeting Spring, it seems like we only need to make minute changes to have it work with the Passions system. For example, Fleeting Spring 2 changes "desires" with some modifiers based on the intensity of the desire you're trying to change. We could now simply say you take a penalty on your activation roll equal to the rank of the passion you're trying to change, in order to change it. Allows spring courtiers a distinct advantage in social combat: if they don't have a passion or ideal you can use as equipment (or if they have a pesky passion giving them armor against you) just change one into one you can use. Fleeting Spring 1 could also be used to suss out someone's passions without the vagueries of an empathy roll-- you didn't just guess, you bloody well *know* that they love x person y amount. Three and Four can be left alone, since they refer to specific things someone wants at the moment, rather than general emotional ties to stuff in the world. And Five could be used to maybe turn a Passion into an Irrationality?

Edit the Third: Come to think of it, the Fleeting contracts for all four Courts could effect Passions like this, just with specific resonances (with Spring having the arguably broadest application). Though Summer, Autumn and Winter tend to add emotions rather than change existing ones, which messes with the passions ladder. Anyone else have ideas?
User avatar
Fox Folger
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:06 pm

Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Fetch » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:41 pm

Well the rational idealistic sociopath, while it dose have precedence in literature and reality, goes against the WoD gothic "you go crazy from sinning" morality. If someone really wanted to play such a character I'd recommend making sure their killing aligns with their Virtue (+1 to degeneration draw) and meditating (also +1) on the need for the killing. I might also allow a +1 if the killing is in direct support of one of your Ideals (and -1 if it's both a sin and against your Ideals). That way they increase your risk of dropping (more actions can make you drop) but also make it less likely you'll drop from things you believe are necessary.

I don't think this really makes mind mages more terrifying so much as it codifies how they are scary. Psychic Surgery lets you rewrite your subjects personality. Now it might let you rewrite their Passions, Ideals, and Irrationalities. Same idea really.

Anyway, yes, the system can and will work quite well with changeling emotional powers. Others could benefit as well. The Vampire Discipline Dominate could make it so others cannot spend Willpower to drop your Sway below your level in Dominate. Bam, instant talky mind control powers.


Part of my thinking on Irrationalities is to make derangements a good thing, in part. Derangements as nothing but (mild) stick hasn't proven overly effective so perhaps making it a mix of good and bad could make them more relevant to gameplay. They make for great social resistance but in the long run they are likely to prove problematic given their inability to change. In the short run tho it dose make derangement powers a good thing, if you don't mind milling Clarity down to 2. Mind Mages can use it to ignore social commands of others, but then they already could do that (I mind control myself to not do what you say). Off the top of my head I don't recall anyone else with derangement based powers.

If your character is willing to drop themselves down to Clarity 2 to ignore people, well, that comes with allot of drawbacks of it's own.
User avatar
Fetch
Ring Member
 
Posts: 3922
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:01 pm

Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Mr E » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:43 am

If you are using subterfuge for 'stealthy' social attacks, what roll would one make to notice the attack? wits+composure still?

one big difference between social and physical combat is that there are many more oportunitites to engage in social combat in a game than in physical combat, and the penalties for doing so are greater physically than socially. Also as Bryce pointed out there are many merits, maneuvers and what not to help one reduce or negate damage in physical combat.

I use the term 'social combat' because that is what this rule seems to be to me, a way for one player to wrest control of a character away from another player. As such there should be consequences just as if one character shot another character in the back.

Social combat is simply so much more usable and abuse-able than physical combat that unless there are some serious restrictions I can envision players getting rather testy.

Other thoughts as they come...
Mr E
Staff
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Fox Folger » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:53 pm

Mr E wrote:If you are using subterfuge for 'stealthy' social attacks, what roll would one make to notice the attack? wits+composure still?

Still? Its never been wits+composure. Seeing through lies has always been wits+empathy.

Mr E wrote:one big difference between social and physical combat is that there are many more oportunitites to engage in social combat in a game than in physical combat, and the penalties for doing so are greater physically than socially. Also as Bryce pointed out there are many merits, maneuvers and what not to help one reduce or negate damage in physical combat.

I use the term 'social combat' because that is what this rule seems to be to me, a way for one player to wrest control of a character away from another player. As such there should be consequences just as if one character shot another character in the back.

Social combat is simply so much more usable and abuse-able than physical combat that unless there are some serious restrictions I can envision players getting rather testy.

Other thoughts as they come...
[/quote][/quote]
How is making someone do something major more wresting control of their character away from them than killing them is? Because we're looking at about the same number of successes required for each-- and Sway successes don't stack, unlike combat successes. Why should social characters be totally unable to affect the world around them, while physical characters can affect the world better than literally every other build?

All you've just said is that it is now prudent to boost your social defenses. I don't see how that's a problem-- dumping a stat should have consequences.
User avatar
Fox Folger
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:06 pm

Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby The Doctor » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:31 pm

The still part was meaning that wits+composure is used to notice stealthy physical attacks.

Also, you can't kill someone without an app and very good reasons. You can, with this system, convince them to destroy their lives without such reasons and effort.
User avatar
The Doctor
Changeling
 
Posts: 1228
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:22 pm

Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Milk Waffler » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:13 pm

Being the devils advocate here, you don't need any app to chop off someones legs or otherwise horridly disfiguring them.
“Most people don’t realize that large pieces of coral, which have been painted brown and attached to the skull by common wood screws, can make a child look like a deer.”
Milk Waffler
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:29 pm

Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Fox Folger » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:48 pm

The Doctor wrote:The still part was meaning that wits+composure is used to notice stealthy physical attacks.

Also, you can't kill someone without an app and very good reasons. You can, with this system, convince them to destroy their lives without such reasons and effort.


Obvious solution: institute an application system for fifth-level sway used against PCs, or something along those lines.

Also what Milk Waffler said.
User avatar
Fox Folger
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:06 pm

Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Mr E » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:23 am

In any case these rules would empower social characters to new heights and I believe that issues of balance will come up.
one that comes to mind would be the use of contracts of separation which would allow a character to become neigh untouchable or truly untouchable (5) and yet still be able to drain willpower and manipulate any people in the scene with impunity.
I will also point out that most changelings with this contract can do it for free as all the catch requires is to be un-armed, un-armored and not attack.
Mr E
Staff
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Social Rules Idea

Postby Fox Folger » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:23 am

Mr E wrote:In any case these rules would empower social characters to new heights and I believe that issues of balance will come up.
one that comes to mind would be the use of contracts of separation which would allow a character to become neigh untouchable or truly untouchable (5) and yet still be able to drain willpower and manipulate any people in the scene with impunity.
I will also point out that most changelings with this contract can do it for free as all the catch requires is to be un-armed, un-armored and not attack.


Oh no, Fairest own at social interactions?

You realize Vainglory 3 does this too, right? And its the explicit point of the contract?

Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure Separation 5 shifts you into Twilight, in which case no one can hear you speak.

Edit the second: Also, Elements 5 lets me turn into a gust of wind that can't be attacked, and still lets me do physical damage to you.
User avatar
Fox Folger
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:06 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Rules Questions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron