4 Minor Changes

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4 Minor Changes

Postby Fetch » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:24 am

Unlike some of my other ideas there would be specifically to simplify the system we play.

Auto-damage
I've discussed this one with Bryce in person. It would be a change to auto-damage such as fire to make armor effective against it without being outright immunity. Instead of damage from fire and the like being a simple number of points per round it would be a test pool. Every round the fire attacks you with a pool of 7, for example. It adds a small amount of extra time when taking ongoing damage but it allows armor to be just as effective against environmental damage as attacks without being ridiculously overpowered.
Explosions and falling, which already use a draw to determine part of their damage, could be given 9A or 8A to demonstrate their greater danger.
Spoiler: show
Auto-damage - Damage Test Pool
1 - 4
2 - 7
3 - 10
4 - 15
and so on...



Chance Die
This idea is simple. Get rid of it. Test pools can be dropped to 0 or as far below as their penalties carry them and simply add up in the normal way. Supernatural powers that drop someone to a chance die would instead just drop them to -5 or something there about.


Size, Strength, and Lifting
This has been edited to reflect the discussion below.
First up we're unifying Sizes so everything save property use the same chart:
Spoiler: show
Size - Examples
0 - Spiders, mice, cellphone, keys
1 - Toad, sparrow, bat, knife, pistol
2 - Cat, hare, crow, large rat, textbook, laptop, backpack, arming sword
3 - Fox, owl, hawk, coyote, young child, hiking backpack, quarter staff
4 - Large dog, wolf, goat, eagle, child/teen, pike
5 - Human, leopard, hyena, python
6 - Deer, jaguar, dolphin
7 - Bear, horse, lion, alligator, motorcycle
8 - Tiger, grizzly bear
9 - Cattle,boar
10 - Moose, giant swine
11 - Wildebeast
12 - Bison, tiger shark, compact car
13 - Rhino,hippopotamus, car
14 - Asian elephant, great white shark
15 - African elephant, orca, SUV
...
20 - Shipping container, large truck, small house


A character can use/wield an item with Size up to their Strength without penalty, carry an item one dot higher, or drag an item one Size larger than that. Using both hands to wield a tool or aid with carrying increases a characters Strength by 1 for lifting/carrying/using but dose not leave a free manipulator to do other actions with. Note: A backpack, body armor, or similar is still considered to take "1 hand" due to throwing the wearers weight off and preventing them from moving effectively with both hands overloaded.

If a character has to carry something long term, such as hiking all day or long distance foot chase, their Strength is capped by their Stamina for the purpose of carrying/using stuff.

Characters can attempt to move or use larger objects but each dot of Size the object has above the character's manipulation limit inflicts a -1 penalty to most Physical tests and to Defense. For example a Strength 1 character trying to drag a human body (Size 5) would suffer a -2 as they can normally only drag something of Size 3. Actually lifting or moving anything quickly or under stress (read: in combat) may call for an Instant Strength + Athletics test allowing 1 step of movement and/or 1 round of use per success. A child might take a round to ready a pike such that they can get the point faced in the right direction and, having achieved a single success, make one attack the next round before their balance is lost and they can't swing the tip off the ground effectively.


Morality
When a character commits a breaking point they make a test at the end of the scene with a pool equal to the lowest breaking point committed that scene. Bonuses and penalties apply as per the book.

If a character loses Morality they make a test of their new Morality pool with failure giving a Derangement.

This is in place of using table top dice pools for morality mechanics.
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Re: 4 Minor Changes

Postby Fox Folger » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:31 am

Quick problem with the proposed new lifting rules: I can pick up and carry you, for a very brief period of time. You're size five, I'm only strength one. Someone with strength three or four should be able to carry people reasonably easily, but here the strength three can't even drag them and the strength four can't do better than dragging.

It doesn't seem particularly necessary to change, besides. The rules don't get used often enough by anyone but Doctor Brown, who can lift anything anyway and hence doesn't actually need them, so even if they're a little clunky it doesn't seem to matter.

Edit: also, a broomstick is size five. I can't carry one of them, either, according to the new system. Hell, I apparently can't lift a backpack (size 2).
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Re: 4 Minor Changes

Postby The Doctor » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:42 am

Yeah, I was going to mention that the unification of item size makes you able to carry a lot less.

Now, for the example of you carrying him, technically that would be a feat of strength (strength+stamina roll, successes added to your strength total to determine what you can lift), so it is potentially possible for you to carry a person.

But...yeah. The change makes people unable to carry what they should be able to. 2x strength for determining carrying? That gives a strength 1 person with 1 success on feat of strength being able to drag someone, or 2 successes to carry them for a bit. Above average (strength 3) should be about where you can start carrying a person anyway.
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Re: 4 Minor Changes

Postby Fox Folger » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:47 am

Another strangeness: in this system, it is just as easy to carry an empty hiking pack as it is to carry one loaded down with two weeks worth of food and supplies. Size is simply to abstract a metric to be reasonably used to model carrying capacity.
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Re: 4 Minor Changes

Postby Fetch » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:49 am

Like I said in my note, allot of common items would be standardized in Size. No way would I call a broomstick the same size as an adult human. You'd still be able to test to increase you Strength for lifting/dragging for one action. Have you ever tried to carry a person? Or even drag them more than a few feet? It's hard work. Perhaps tho all the Strength requirements should be dropped by one or two.

Also lifting dose come up for people other the Brown. If anything it comes up for others more because pretty much anything can be lifted with Strength 6. By comparison the question of how hard it is to move a fallen body or piece of loot has come up plenty of times.

edit:
The Doctor wrote:2x strength for determining carrying? That gives a strength 1 person with 1 success on feat of strength being able to drag someone, or 2 successes to carry them for a bit. Above average (strength 3) should be about where you can start carrying a person anyway.

This makes some sense but then Strength 5 and a decent draw would let you carry a (small) car. Not ideal.
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Re: 4 Minor Changes

Postby Fox Folger » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:57 am

Again, tho, this means I cannot lift a backpack. Or a rifle. Or, hell, a styrofoam statue of a person (assuming such a thing exists)-- size simply does not work as a replacement of weight, not without totally decoupling it from any common sense notion of "size" at which point, why bother?
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Re: 4 Minor Changes

Postby Fetch » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:12 am

And yet the WoD already uses Size as a replacement for weight everywhere but lifting capacity. I will grant your Styrofoam statue and raise you a bag of chicken feed. 50 lbs isn't hard to carry but the bag of feed is specifically because it's so much larger volume than, say, a barbell weight.

Your backpack is what, Size 2? If we dropped Strength requirements by 1 that lets you carry it all day at Size 1, Stamina 1. A loaded hiking backpack is Size 3ish but should give equipment bonus to carrying it so again you're probably fine moving it around.
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Re: 4 Minor Changes

Postby Fox Folger » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:24 am

It does? Huh. Well that's... stupid.

I guess if the minimum size anyone can carry is 2 makes the system at least workable, barely, but I still don't think the change needs to happen. Like, at all. Just decide how much a thing weighs and see if it makes sense for your strength dots to be able to pick it up. Making size more arbitrary than it already is just seems like an unneeded complication for a system I haven't seen us having issues with anyway.
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Re: 4 Minor Changes

Postby Fetch » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:42 am

To be fair mostly Size/weight matter to various powers so it's kind of a mixed bag. You could always argue that alchemy limits are supposed to be on volume, not mass, for example.

As for why I want the change, the group gets attacked by large dogs and takes one out. Our Strength 2 character wants to grab a dog and run with it before the pack catches up. Now, you want to keep combat running quickly so can they run with it, drag it, or need to make a test for it? With pounds of carrying capacity I'm trying to remember how much Strength 2 lets someone cary and how much a large dog weighs. 100 lbs carrying? And the dog's what, 80? Google and the book tell me I'm right but I'm guessing 90% of the player base doesn't know both of those and even I need to take some time to recall them.

With Size the dog is Size 3. That means dragging or testing to carry. Fast and easy.
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Re: 4 Minor Changes

Postby The Doctor » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:23 pm

Fetch wrote: that lets you carry it all day at Strength 1, Stamina 1.

That what you meant there?

Also.

Image

Although I do agree that simply doubling one stat can make it too easy to be able to lift really heavy things. Perhaps strength+stamina for lifting capacity, rather than arbitrarily lowering some size on things? That allows the weakest person to carry size 2 things (although not necessarily wield in combat, which is good), and requires someone to have both strength 5 and stamina 5 and a good draw in order to have the ability to carry a small car. And at that point...you are really the most physically fit and strong person in the world. Finding the leverage to lift it up would still be an issue, as well.
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