So you want less complexity?

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Re: So you want less complexity?

Postby Ovid » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:07 pm

Well, its not quite costing twice, since you're now using two stats for it, effectively.
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Re: So you want less complexity?

Postby The Doctor » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:27 am

Let me see if I can get this straight. Attributes (and their environmental equivalents) add auto-successes on both sides of both resisted and contested challenges. Successes on defense are subtracted from successes on offense.

...meh. It doesn't change anything, it just makes people with the bigger pools (well, bigger attributes) win harder in anything they do. Although I did find it amusing how reduced Beth's stats were.


Anyway, example time!
Old system:
Dr. Brown goes for a round with, let's say, the Summer King of Seattle, Doug. He's a tough old soldier with stamina 6. Near-unkillable. Trying to hit a called shot (since it's the closest mimicry to the severity system), Dr. Brown's running his usual plethora of combat buffs (eternalsummer3stone1strength1willpoweralloutblahblahblah). All his stats add up in a pool, subtracted by Doug's defense, and successes are compared to Doug's stamina to see if it damages. Even for a powerhouse such as Dr. Brown, hurting Doug is a tough deal, requiring 6 successes.

New system:
Dr. Brown with another round with Doug! Still strength 6 vs stamina 6, playing field should be equal...wait, but several of his buffs give attribute buffs, namely eternal summer 3 and stone 1. So now Dr. Brown's sitting at 6 +2 +3 strength, against his opponent's now comparatively weak stamina 6. So Dr. Brown's sitting at Severity 5 to begin with. And still has his immense pool. Add another 5 successes on top of that, now he's sitting at 10 severity? Which means...something. Does Doug's stamina count against it again to see the damage type or severity of the injury? Does his stamina act as auto-successes twice?


Anyway, I feel there's two to three large flaws in this system. First, it needlessly adds attributes as auto-successes, making each stat a double-dip, as it were (adding to both the pool and as auto-successes). Second, it is more complex due to making there be different thresholds for each individual test rather than a baseline of successes. Third, it doesn't really benefit the system in any way.
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Re: So you want less complexity?

Postby Fetch » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:26 am

Just like every others discussion of system hacking, if we change the system in some way magic powers that interact with that system may need to be changed. In this case Attribute buffs would need to be "reexamined."

Yes, this makes Attributes more important, rendering them more than just expensive (but broad) kills.

Without Severity about all this is is a regular instant test. Now, (some of) the problems with regular Instant Tests alone: Chain them together and anyone can accomplish anything (ie get enough successes) given enough time. Even if we address that (cumulative -1 on all tests after the first) the way successes stack up means that if you compare one roll to multiple the multiple is always going to win (18 successes hiding the crime to 3 looking for it) , unless we come up with other rules for comparing the two. Once you start using fancy rules to compare the two suddenly we have Instant and Extended again.

So how dose Severity help with these? It gives a good mechanic for limiting repeat draws that scales with tests pool. Lets say Mephisto wants to keep working on covering his crime. He's already gotten it concealed by 3. That means it's harder to find anything that needs cleaning so his next test on cleaning it faces that 3 as Resistance, something hard for him to follow up given his Int. Lets say Fier wants to cover up the same crime scene, instead of follow it up. Changes are she gets a Severity of 6 to cover it up. Now she wants to make another test. Just like Mephisto she has a hard time following up her own act.

By contrast if they just strait up applied successes to cleaning over time they'd likely have a total of Successes per test x Tests made. Now you could apply a success subtracter after every test but then all you're doing is moving the "Severity" step.

Brown vs Doug. Your fist "mistake" is comparing it to called shots. Yes, dealing out injuries is dealing out injuries but the current fist to HP is also relevant for comparison, doubly so because it's the "too much complexity" of my called shot rules that brings this debate up.

Old System: Brown hits for about 5 damage per blow. By RAW Doug's dead in two or three hits but with Injuries he's just injured and can limp on to fight another day. In the first case his Stamina 6 barely matters and in the second he run off to a funny subsystem that's hard for some people to remember.

Called Shot: Brown hits for a called shot. He needs 4 successes to deal a Trivial Injury, his average 5 is a Bashing Injury, and 6 successes the Injury gets real.

Proposal: Dr Brown can one shot most people (Strength 6 - Stamina less) just like he can now. His Strength advantage bounces against Doug (6 - 6) and his 4 to 6 successes define the result* of the test. That means Doug is likely hurt badly but not dead, a result worse than the called shot, not as bad as RAW, and about the same as getting pounded for 15 seconds and then making an Injury test. So that means, roughly, that one bout of fists is the same as 5 before.

If hypothectcal Beth is pounding on Doug She'd need about a billion (25+) rounds to deal enough damage to make a serious Injury and on a called shot would have crap all odds of doing anything. Proposed system she'd have (1 - 6) crap all odds of doing anything bad, even less than now (but 1 in 10,000 is hardly different in play than 1 in 1,000), making the Stam 6 even more valuable relative to Strength 1 than it is now but not fundamentally changing the equation. Just assume her one test now represents about ten rounds of combat in the past.

* One really important thing you're missing it that Severity is not necessarily the only result of a test. I'm specifically introducing the idea of spending Successes on different desirable factors instead of just having "win" mean one thing and one thing only.



First, it needlessly adds attributes as auto-successes, making each stat a double-dip, as it were (adding to both the pool and as auto-successes).
If it didn't add Attributes as psudo-auto successes then subtracting successes would be a real pain. As mentioned above, subtracting successes makes for a much cleaner limiting mechanic than die penalties. It's not needless. As to double-dip, it makes Attributes (even) cooler, relative to skills. Instead of some Attributes being cooler because stuff is derived from them (WP, health, Defense) all Attributes would have this cool feature.

Second, it is more complex due to making there be different thresholds for each individual test rather than a baseline of successes.
Target number for your draw is still 9/12/15/ect. Or do you mean the Resistance stat? Yes, it's different for each test but I point out the people vs Doug above. If it takes twice as long (and I don't think it would) to run a test that replaces five in the old system we're saving time. Add to that there's already different thresholds of success for different tests, it's just that they are handled in many different ways. The baseline for success on Initiative is fundamentally different then on the combat draw itself where you want as many successes as possible or want your victims Stamina in successes.

Third, it doesn't really benefit the system in any way.
You think that about every change ever. It benefits the system because it makes it easy to make all tests use the same kind of test. With new people I find it easy to run them thru some perception draws, a quick subterfuge vs empathy, maybe a test to lift something, and so on. They tend to suffer serious confusion when combat comes up or when an extended test is called for.

Why is it easier to walk them thru a strait Instant test, a contested Instant test, and an Instant test with funny rules behind it but a pain in the ass to move to Initiative or an extended test? It's because the first three tests work in the same way, only the results are interpreted differently. It's easy to walk thru because we go the same "A + B + d10, compare to success chart, and now here's what x successes mean" process for all of them. By contrast the first Extended challenge makes them go "wait, I can just draw again to add more successes to my first test?!?" and then the next time they are making a perception test they try to draw twice and add the two together. After all that's what they got to do when carving a statue, why not when looking around?
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Re: So you want less complexity?

Postby Fetch » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:30 am

Oh yes, I also forgot to mention another big advantage of this system. Because it's fundamentally different than anything published by White Wolf we can put it, and any subsystems based on it, online without fear of litigious lawyers.
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Re: So you want less complexity?

Postby Malice » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:53 am

If you want to simplify, simplify. Retool all the tests to work like a simple test. If however you want to switch to the Severity system and change a lot of stuff like use DEX in place of Defense and count STR twice, well that might be interesting, but that's not necessary for simplification. Change of that description is hard to wrap my head around, which points to an increase in complexity, not decrease. But my point is that is not the only way to simplify.
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Re: So you want less complexity?

Postby Fetch » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:49 am

If you don't mind my asking, how strong a grasp do you feel you have on the different tests that exist now? I mean in my example of Mephisto getting 18 successes on an extended test to clean his crime scene and Fier gets 3 successes on her Instant test looking around who's winning and why?

By contrast if Mephisto gets a Severity of 3 cleaning his crime scene and Fier gets a net Severity of 2 (after subtracting Mephisto's 3 from her total) searching it who wins and why?

Now, which is simper?
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